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<  Jeremy Lin  ~  Houston Rockets Big 4 on 2013~14 Media Day

PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:42 pm
User avatarPosts: 7214Location: Austin, TX Home of the RoseBowl Champions and NCAA basketball champions.Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:24 am
pryuen wrote:
tharock220 wrote:

That's like asking why didn't the Lakers let Gary Payton be a point guard in 2004 instead of giving Kobe the ball the majority of the time. Kobe was better than Payton, and Hardin is better than Lin. That's not a criticism of Jeremy. It's just the truth.


Well, all I know is Kobe pissed off Howard last season because of his ISO; so if Harden doesn't change, he'll piss of Howard too. It's a NO BRAINER that ISO plays destroy chemistry.

If you want Howard to play great you have to give him the ball, he's not going to stand by on the side and watch Harden trying to go through 5 players.

WITHOUT Jeremy last year, personally don't think the Rockets would have made the playoff. There were so many nights that Rockets lost because of hero ball from James Harden. Both Chandler Parsons and Jeremy were playing Mr. Nice Guy watching James Harden playing hero ball/ISOs and focusing on points per night insteads of teamwork or FG%.

Did you recall how many of these sub 40% FG% nights James Harden had in last season??? And how he would constantly ignore the double or triple team he was up against, and would rather try to go through them with sheer force insteads of trying to pass to his open team mates???

I guess there are fans that like to see Kobe-like ISO ball.....but I don't.

Ws are ALWAYS MORE IMPORTANT than individual heroics or getting your shots on ESPN's highlight reels.


I fail to see why you insist on bringing up Harden's shooting when Lin's was similar on about 2/3rd's as many shots.

And you might be right. Without Jeremy the Rockets don't make the playoffs. Without Harden, however, the Rockets aren't even a .500 team.

Other NBA players who iso

LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Russell Westbrook
Dwyane Wade
Kobe Bryant
Derek Rose
Kyrie Irving
Carmelo Anthony

In the NBA, the vast majority of the time, the purpose of the offense is to create mismatches. A good player in a one on one situation is usually a mismatch.

Your asserted that Jeremy should have the ball because he's a better point guard, but Kobe Bryant handled the ball rather than Payton, Fisher, or Blake, McGrady handled the ball rather than Sura or Alston, Dwyane Wade handled the ball rather than Jason Williams or Gary Payton, Allen Iversno handled the ball rather than Eric Snow, Jordan handled the ball rather than John Paxson, BJ Armstrong, or Ron Harper, and the list just goes on.

The line between the one and the two has become increasingly blurred. When you have a arguably the best off guard in the league, the only way he's not going to handle the rock the majority of the time is if he shares the backcourt with the likes of Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Deron Williams, Rondo etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:52 pm
User avatarPosts: 15487Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:31 pm
The point is now with the context of having Dwight Howard on your team. Howard is a better player than Harden and draws more double teams and better defender.

People forget that Howard when healthy is a top 3 player in the NBA. It's was CP3, Lebron and Howard with the best stats in multiple seasons.

So, Kobe chased Shaq off the team and Shaq went and got a ring right after with Wade. You don't want ISO Harden to fck things up.

Also, take fcking smello and Irving off that list. They haven't won sht, they ISO because their team sucks.

Also, Deron will have the ball less in his hands this coming season. He already had it less the previous season with ISO Joe on this team. They officially made a team announcement that ISO Joe will be their closer.

My point is that dynamics change with roster change. I believe that's what Pyruen was trying to say as well. When you go out and get Dwight, you make sure to fit your gameplan to accommodate Dwight. Lin will get the ball to Dwight. Harden is told to play more fcking defense.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:15 pm
User avatarPosts: 12344Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:27 pm
Malorkayel wrote:
The point is now with the context of having Dwight Howard on your team. Howard is a better player than Harden and draws more double teams and better defender.
it is more about creating mismatches.

Malorkayel wrote:
People forget that Howard when healthy is a top 3 player in the NBA.
everyone know that he, despite having a limited inside game, was a top 3 player.

Malorkayel wrote:
So, Kobe chased Shaq off the team and Shaq went and got a ring right after with Wade.
u have conveniently omitted to point that,
  • without the outta-shape shaq, kobe went on to win 2 more rings
  • the outta-shape shaq quickly wore out his welcome in Miami and
    became a nba journeyman


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:00 pm
Posts: 17569Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 1:31 pm
Dr. No wrote:
Malorkayel wrote:
The point is now with the context of having Dwight Howard on your team. Howard is a better player than Harden and draws more double teams and better defender.
it is more about creating mismatches.

Malorkayel wrote:
People forget that Howard when healthy is a top 3 player in the NBA.
everyone know that he, despite having a limited inside game, was a top 3 player.

Malorkayel wrote:
So, Kobe chased Shaq off the team and Shaq went and got a ring right after with Wade.
u have conveniently omitted to point that,
  • without the outta-shape shaq, kobe went on to win 2 more rings
  • the outta-shape shaq quickly wore out his welcome in Miami and
    became a nba journeyman


Have you ever tried Five Guys burgers?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:35 am
Posts: 10073Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:10 pm
tharock220 wrote:
pryuen wrote:
tharock220 wrote:

That's like asking why didn't the Lakers let Gary Payton be a point guard in 2004 instead of giving Kobe the ball the majority of the time. Kobe was better than Payton, and Hardin is better than Lin. That's not a criticism of Jeremy. It's just the truth.


Well, all I know is Kobe pissed off Howard last season because of his ISO; so if Harden doesn't change, he'll piss of Howard too. It's a NO BRAINER that ISO plays destroy chemistry.

If you want Howard to play great you have to give him the ball, he's not going to stand by on the side and watch Harden trying to go through 5 players.

WITHOUT Jeremy last year, personally don't think the Rockets would have made the playoff. There were so many nights that Rockets lost because of hero ball from James Harden. Both Chandler Parsons and Jeremy were playing Mr. Nice Guy watching James Harden playing hero ball/ISOs and focusing on points per night insteads of teamwork or FG%.

Did you recall how many of these sub 40% FG% nights James Harden had in last season??? And how he would constantly ignore the double or triple team he was up against, and would rather try to go through them with sheer force insteads of trying to pass to his open team mates???

I guess there are fans that like to see Kobe-like ISO ball.....but I don't.

Ws are ALWAYS MORE IMPORTANT than individual heroics or getting your shots on ESPN's highlight reels.


I fail to see why you insist on bringing up Harden's shooting when Lin's was similar on about 2/3rd's as many shots.

And you might be right. Without Jeremy the Rockets don't make the playoffs. Without Harden, however, the Rockets aren't even a .500 team.

Other NBA players who iso

LeBron James
Kevin Durant
Russell Westbrook
Dwyane Wade
Kobe Bryant
Derek Rose
Kyrie Irving
Carmelo Anthony

In the NBA, the vast majority of the time, the purpose of the offense is to create mismatches. A good player in a one on one situation is usually a mismatch.

Your asserted that Jeremy should have the ball because he's a better point guard, but Kobe Bryant handled the ball rather than Payton, Fisher, or Blake, McGrady handled the ball rather than Sura or Alston, Dwyane Wade handled the ball rather than Jason Williams or Gary Payton, Allen Iversno handled the ball rather than Eric Snow, Jordan handled the ball rather than John Paxson, BJ Armstrong, or Ron Harper, and the list just goes on.

The line between the one and the two has become increasingly blurred. When you have a arguably the best off guard in the league, the only way he's not going to handle the rock the majority of the time is if he shares the backcourt with the likes of Chris Paul, Tony Parker, Deron Williams, Rondo etc.


you guys are having a queer conversation but a couple of points:

neither of these guys are a pure points. they're both basically combo guards. they both score and handle the ball. Lin can play point because he has good court vision, good passing and high BB IQ but if you wanted to maximize his contributions he is an explosive scorer and thus would never play a traditional point. that's if you wanted to maximize his contribution, like Harvard or the Knicks. if you're McHale and 10000 hicks from Houston then you're not interested in maximizing his contributions, you want him to play point.

the problem with Lin is that his instincts are to score and to create, to help the team when they need points. playing a PG is in many ways counter to his natural instincts, which creates problems when he tries to play McHale's role

you guys are also muddling some basic basketball

first of all the deal with handling the ball is that no matter how good you are with the ball, there's no player who is as agile and quick with the ball as without the ball. the reason why a SG doesn't bring the ball up the court and have the ball in his hands is because by NOT having the ball in his hands he can put himself in a better position to create mismatches and separation and otherwise score when the PG passes him the ball. it's not because having the ball in SG's hands at all times is an advantage to him but because it's a DISADVANTAGE to his job scoring.

the thing that delineates a PG and SG is not the fact that the PG has the ball in his hands more but that the SG IS A BETTER SCORER than the PG. in essence the roles are mechanically created to actually give flexibility to the SG to operate with EITHER the ball in his hands or not in his hands whereas for a PG the default is for the ball to be in his hands... not to give him more opportunities to score but so that the SG, SF and other dedicated scorers can use the fact the ball is not in their hands to get into better tactical positions to score. with a short time clock, every second in an offensive possession must be spent advancing your team's chance to score. one second spent without you getting your team an incremental advantage to score is a second wasted. you can think of the time that the SG spends to run around the screen or create a switch or get open like a fast forward button on the offense compared to him with the ball in his hands.

it's basic tactic in sports, and universal base strategic concept. it's like kids playing LOL. bottom lane you have support feed ADC, the idea being that the SG maximizing his scoring opportunities even at the cost of a PG is actually better than the PG and SG both scoring, and both being responsible for handling the ball in what are non-advantage basketball situations.

the reason why this has changed a bit in the NBA is basically because of Stern's corruption. first of all "star calls" wholly imbalance the cost benefit of having a PG feed you the ball. more time of possession in a star's hands, especially in crunch time increases dramatically the chance that the standard contact that happens on every NBA play will be called a foul. second basketball players are stupid, they can't really see things in steps ahead but just right what's in front of him, so to someone like Kobe, the .5 seconds it takes for his PG to pass him the ball is a waste. he's going to just take the ball and shoot so it doesn't matter who passes him the ball. it's faster to just have it in his hands already and then jack up a shot or go to the basket to get a foul. third of course is that Stern has purposefully made it easier for SGs starting with Jordan, in effect by diluting the ability of defenders to check the ball handler, he's lowered the difference between a guy moving with the ball and without the ball compared to legit basketball, therefore reducing the cost and increasing the benefit of a SG starting with the ball in his hands, rather than moving to get into a position to score.

now rock is going to come in here and ***** some nonsense about being misconstrued but the above is just so you are both up to speed on what basketball is. the problem with your post is your taking all of this and netting out in your head that if Kobe does something and Lebron does something then Harden should have the ball in his hands "most of the time." that's retarded. it's exactly the same as with the other issue you are arguing about: isos. you list a bunch of dudes and then say "hey melo isos to not win rings.... obv harden should iso."

it doesn't matter what other teams do, what matters is the substance of why they do what they do. Westbrook, Durant, Lebron, Melo, Lebron all create natural mismatches, which the team exploits for scoring opportunities. The only mismatch Harden versus 2 at the end of the game creates is against Houston. isobeard is homosexual. the only thing more flaming is the idea that Harden should do it because a list of dudes do it and the idea that Harden should do it because McHale religiously believes in that ******. unless his game is predisposed to exploiting mismatches, and he has the ability to CREATE natural mismatches that are more efficacious than using all 5 players to create opportunities it's some dumb ******

where pryuen is wrong is insisting that isobeard clogging the offense specifically hurts Lin. really who gets hurt when Harden isos is the entire team, not Lin. to your point, Harden handling the ball does impact Lin since both are types of players who need the ball in their hands to produce but Harden's job is to score. rather than blame him for operating like he's still coming off the bench with a responsibility to individually impact the offense (which includes having the ball in his hands at the cost of others) all that blame goes to McHale who gave him the green light to be greedy. I actually think that even without getting Howard, Harden's ball handling would have gone down. always having the ball in his hands is a clear trait of playing as a 6th man, matched against reserves, with the main responsibility to create offense. as a starter that is a detriment to your team because your outlook and responsibility is far more strategic than tactical, for example making sure other players get into their groove, have possession throughout the game, and also pacing out your game, rather than having limited minutes to go 100% and get your points ignoring everyone else.

it is clear that Harden handling the ball too much (actually without being strategic about it) can hurt the team, and more importantly hurt Harden's efficiency as a scorer but you should be cognizant that it was a transition year for Harden too. he often looked greedy or boneheaded but rather than out of hubris it was probably him being a young player and not understanding much. the reason I think this is because you want to try to be objective and operate on empirical facts. this dude was a good teammate in Oklahoma. he was just probably trying to do too much, really he handled the transition better than Lin did (with a great deal more support and basic respect than Lin of course) relying on a coach who is primarily concerned with covering his ***** than helping develop young players.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:42 am
Posts: 10073Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:10 pm
Dr. Moranus wrote:
Malorkayel wrote:
McFail as coach. Now with Dwight, McHale is force to run an offense and not just let the dogs out.
goin to the Rox was the best option available fo DH.

McHale is gonna teach him some more inside moves. for Rox sake, thru the process of osmosis, some of his teaching will rub off on DH. that's a big if, but should it pan out, Rox are gonna to make noise---way past the first round---in the playoff

an elite ISO baller, a dependable inside presence as well as an outside sniper, and a steady pg, make for a formidable combination.


OSMOSIS y'all

lol

Moranus, I'm going to explain this in terms you can understand: your entire idea that McHale teaching some move is going to be more impactful than anyone else teaching him the same ****** is like you thinking that Chinese food "tastes better" when it's cooked by a Chinese

you can train up some Mexicans to cook the **** out of chinese food. and french food. and applebees.

it doesn't matter who TEACHES him. it's how hard the fagget works.

you think McHale has some magic? does that even make sense? pro sports is a $30 billion business you don't think that over the past 30 years SOMEONE would have tapped into that magic, had McHale teach him for a week and then PROFIT INSIDE TEH PAINT?

you dont think that magical transfer of abilities would have been worth $1000000000 MILLION to any player who wanted to be HOF inside the paint? dont you think McHale would have parsed out that magical ability once or twice in a generation to select players to make them MYSTERIOUS ALL TIME GREATS and retired to an island in the South Pacific with tiny giraffes?

quit being a ****** retard posting nonsense repeatedly. the only thing you got right is by aping me talking about NBA mismatches


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:24 am
Posts: 4495Location: NJ/NY Metro AreaJoined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:07 pm
tharock220 wrote:
Without Jeremy the Rockets don't make the playoffs. Without Harden, however, the Rockets aren't even a .500 team.


I'm not sure I agree with this. From the perspective of a former Nets fan, I look at the teams Jason Kidd took to the NBA Finals with the likes of Keith Van Horn, Kerry Kittles, and Todd MacColluch in the starting lineup...that team won by playing a system perfectly. Now I'm not saying that Jeremy is the equivalent of Jason Kidd in his prime, but I'm also not saying that Jeremy could have taken the Rockets to the Finals either. But Jeremy has shown that he is at his best when there are no superstars on the team, and that when he is the point guard, everybody else gets involved...guys like Landry Fields, Steve Novak, etc. all contribute to wins. So I will go out on a limb and say that if the Rockets didn't sign Harden, a team of Lin, Parsons, Asik, Patrick Patterson and another SG, with a bench that had players like Delfino, Greg Smith, etc, would have had a decent shot at making the playoffs, too...


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:31 am
Posts: 10073Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:10 pm
maybe. there were a lot of ****** teams, basically it's a question whether Houston would have been a couple games over .500. Utah was like 2 games over .500 and that's it. it's possible

the main thing is that McHale didn't do ******. instead of figuring out how to use the assets he had, he basically had Harden do the exact same ****** as if he was a 6th man off the bench including dominating the ball, and he told Lin to do everything except play his own game. he wanted Harden to do exactly what he had been doing and Lin to do everything completely different from what he had been doing lol. neither of those players needed to be doing that they needed a coach to show them how they could adjust to play off each other

the sad thing is even a dumbass is going to coach this team to a good regular season. it's not even that hard. If Houston runs, they can run teams out of the gym. the thing about the Rockets is that most run and gun teams have no defense but Houston actually has pieces to be a pretty damn good defense. it's almost like a mini Miami, in that they could make huge runs and also lock down scorers. the problem is going to be in tight games, when they get bogged down and in the playoffs if McHale keeps just mailing in the check instead of coaching these dudes up


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:02 am
User avatarPosts: 12344Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:27 pm
temuchin wrote:
it doesn't matter who TEACHES him. it's how hard the fagget works.
it doesn't matter how lengthy are your posts, it's the content of the post. ms turd chin, u have live up to ur reputation---lots of words put together that, when taken as a whole, say nothing :!:

ur ignorant of McHale's background, only the nba's best inside player until Dream's arrival. he created/mastered the "up-n-under" move

McHale drafted KG and team w flip saunders to develop his game. he can do it again w DH

temuchin wrote:
a dumbass is going to coach this team
this warrants repeating
    the HoF McHale has forgotten more basketball that you'll ever gonna learn


Last edited by Dr. No on Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 10073Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:10 pm
Moranus McHale wasn't the best inside player loooooooooooooool

McHale was known for having a variety of post moves you don't even understand the difference between that and being "the best" inside player.

and Moses actually developed some of the best "inside players" in history including Hakeem himself and Barkley. he didn't do this by teaching some bullshit clinic that only noobs and faggets believe in but how you actually develop a player: by playing with them day in and day out

not only do you lack a basic comprehension of sports but you're so far gone you can't even distinguish actual ****** like Moses elevating Barkley's game through competition with some internet nonsense like Hakeem doing all these useless clinics with Howard, Kobe, and every other idiot

I put it exactly in terms you can understand, your work environment of a Chinese restuarant. if you can't even comprehend that much English, quit the world wide web and go post on the all-guangzhou forum in pidgin


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