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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:44 pm
User avatarPosts: 59329Location: Hong Kong/ChinaJoined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:13 am
tharock220 wrote:
Anyone who's trying to say Sabas was better than Hakeem, think about this. Despite a couple facials and a loss, David Robinson(not yet in his prime) was not really outplayed by Sabonis in the 88 Olympics. He scored 23 points and shot 10 free throws.




The GREATNESS of a player is NOT determined by STATS PARTICULARLY NOT the way you're presenting in specific 1-on-1 matchups.

Think about this.

YEAH
.... David Robinson was only a NCAA and not yet a NBA player when he played in the 1988 Olympics.

But the Sabonis that played in the 1988 Seoul Olympics
was A CRIPPLED Sabonis, pushed back onto the court by Soviet Union WITHOUT FULLY recovered/rehabilitated from a knee injury/surgery at the beginning of 1988.

And the Sabonis that played in NBA in 1995 onwards
is NOT the dominant Sabonis when he was in the prime.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:20 pm
User avatarPosts: 7215Location: Austin, TX Home of the RoseBowl Champions and NCAA basketball champions.Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:24 am
pryuen wrote:
tharock220 wrote:
Anyone who's trying to say Sabas was better than Hakeem, think about this. Despite a couple facials and a loss, David Robinson(not yet in his prime) was not really outplayed by Sabonis in the 88 Olympics. He scored 23 points and shot 10 free throws.




The GREATNESS of a player is NOT determined by STATS PARTICULARLY NOT the way you're presenting in specific 1-on-1 matchups.

Think about this.

YEAH
.... David Robinson was only a NCAA and not yet a NBA player when he played in the 1988 Olympics.

But the Sabonis that played in the 1988 Seoul Olympics
was A CRIPPLED Sabonis, pushed back onto the court by Soviet Union WITHOUT FULLY recovered/rehabilitated from a knee injury/surgery at the beginning of 1988.

And the Sabonis that played in NBA in 1995 onwards
is NOT the dominant Sabonis when he was in the prime.


What about the 1986 FIBA where, again, Robinson wasn't really outplayed by Sabonis. I'm fully aware of Sabas' play in the 80's, and while impressive, it's gotten to the point where people are saying he's the best ever. The best ever doesn't hide from NBA players in Europe.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:54 pm
Posts: 10073Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:10 pm
tharock220 wrote:
Anyone who's trying to say Sabas was better than Hakeem, think about this. Despite a couple facials and a loss, David Robinson(not yet in his prime) was not really outplayed by Sabonis in the 88 Olympics. He scored 23 points and shot 10 free throws.

The Admiral(now in his prime) was, on the other hand, thoroughly dominated by Dream in the 95 western conference finals. So I don't care what Yao, Vlade, or anyone else says about the subject. The results speak for themselves.

Arvydas Sabonis was a great player who deserves his spot in the hall of fame, but he isn't on the level of the big 5 centers. He's got more in common with guys like Walton, Ewing, Robinson, Hayes, Malone, and even Yao than he does Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, Russel, and Wilt.


Couple of things. First of all there's a problem with your top 5 when it doesn't include Kareem who's better than Hakeem. Russell glides along with his team rings on those top 5 lists

As for Hakeem versus Robinson in 95. It's more a case of Hakeem having the playoffs of his life that year. You downplay David Robinson. He often outplayed Hakeem in many of their meetings before his injury. Robinson was MVP in 1995. He scored 71 the year before. On the flip side Hakeem had many crappy postseasons until he had magical runs in 94 and 95. It was a case of Hakeem coming up for the playoffs and Robinson coming down. In many ways Hakeem is the opposite of Yao in that his career was hit by a stroke of fortune, everything from peaking at the right time, having epic series where he outplayed his main (and legendary) rivals in 95 and 94, even having Jordan retire for a while. His is one of those fortuitous careers where everything came together and his legacy is burnished for all that. Today he is overrated and Robinson is underrated. In the past it was probably reversed.

Third, I didn't watch that 86 World Championship but look what the US National team's own summary of the match says:

Quote:
The USA-USSR gold medal matchup was no less dramatic than one would expect when two world powers meet. Leading 48-38 at halftime, with 7:45 remaining the U.S. was comfortably ahead 78-60. But the Soviet's, behind the play of 7'2' star Arvidas Sabonis and the deadly shooting of Vlademaras Khomichus, stormed back and closed the gap to a single basket with 50 seconds remaining. A Kenny Smith layup over the towering Sabonis with 15 seconds left pushed the USA's lead to 87-83 and the US. held on to win 87-85. Kenny Smith finished with 23 points, Robinson added 20 and Charles Smith finished with 17 points.


the USA's own site credits the USSR's game to Sabonis and Vlademaras Khomichus. on the flip side for the US Kenny the Jet is credited for the US.

look as I said to druno's insane rant, it's a debatable point how great Sabonis would have been. He have no direct evidence of how a prime Sabonis versus a prime Olajuwon would stack up. We do know that a prime Robinson was as good if not better than Hakeem for several years and both are legendary centers. We see that Sabonis stacked up well against Robinson in their youth (Robinson and Sabonis having the same number of field goals in 86 but Robinson taking more free throws).

Robinson was not the leading scorer for the US in 86 or 88. I dont think anyone is going to argue that Charles D. Smith at 15ppg was the best player on that 86 WC team. For his part Sabonis wasn't the leading scorer on a team-oriented USSR team but Sabonis is given a lion's share of the credit most of the summaries of their victories en route to the 88 Gold Medal.

Bottom line, it's debatable. But Robinson is better than you think. If Sabonis is as good as Robinson, he's a top 10 center and very close to top 5.

Was he as good as Robinson or Hakeem? Debatable conjecture. No one knows but we know what contemporaries think about that question.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:44 pm
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Sabonis better than the Dream and the Admiral? In my opinion probably not, especially since I loved their games and that I definitely see them as elite. But it's definitely hard to tell especailly since we're basing it on one match-up. Also let's face it, looking at one-on-one stats dont really tell everything. Going by that theory alone, Yao should be forever remembered as better than D.Howard (and some would definitely argue that he is).


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:16 pm
User avatarPosts: 7215Location: Austin, TX Home of the RoseBowl Champions and NCAA basketball champions.Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:24 am
temuchin wrote:
Couple of things. First of all there's a problem with your top 5 when it doesn't include Kareem who's better than Hakeem. Russell glides along with his team rings on those top 5 lists


I accidentally listed Wilt twice. You might be right about Russel, and I thought that for many years, but he was the driving force for 8 rings in a row. I thought had he been replaced by Chamberlain those Celtics would never have lost, but Wilt himself said otherwise.

temuchin wrote:
As for Hakeem versus Robinson in 95. It's more a case of Hakeem having the playoffs of his life that year. You downplay David Robinson. He often outplayed Hakeem in many of their meetings before his injury. Robinson was MVP in 1995. He scored 71 the year before. On the flip side Hakeem had many crappy postseasons until he had magical runs in 94 and 95. It was a case of Hakeem coming up for the playoffs and Robinson coming down. In many ways Hakeem is the opposite of Yao in that his career was hit by a stroke of fortune, everything from peaking at the right time, having epic series where he outplayed his main (and legendary) rivals in 95 and 94, even having Jordan retire for a while. His is one of those fortuitous careers where everything came together and his legacy is burnished for all that. Today he is overrated and Robinson is underrated. In the past it was probably reversed.


Hakeem was actually a huge postseason performer and among the leaders in ppg in the NBA finals. David Robinson had a limited post game and poor foot work. In a 7 game series where coaches had ample time to design defenses against him, the Admiral routinely suffered. Were DRob's playoff performances better in general he might not be rated below Hakeem. Scoring 71 points on the 94 Clippers does not a career make.

The Rockets owned Jordan's Bulls during their first threepeat.


temuchin wrote:
Quote:
The USA-USSR gold medal matchup was no less dramatic than one would expect when two world powers meet. Leading 48-38 at halftime, with 7:45 remaining the U.S. was comfortably ahead 78-60. But the Soviet's, behind the play of 7'2' star Arvidas Sabonis and the deadly shooting of Vlademaras Khomichus, stormed back and closed the gap to a single basket with 50 seconds remaining. A Kenny Smith layup over the towering Sabonis with 15 seconds left pushed the USA's lead to 87-83 and the US. held on to win 87-85. Kenny Smith finished with 23 points, Robinson added 20 and Charles Smith finished with 17 points.


the USA's own site credits the USSR's game to Sabonis and Vlademaras Khomichus. on the flip side for the US Kenny the Jet is credited for the US.


The point is that Sabonis did not actually dominate and destroy David Robinson as has been insinuated in the past.

temuchin wrote:
look as I said to druno's insane rant, it's a debatable point how great Sabonis would have been. He have no direct evidence of how a prime Sabonis versus a prime Olajuwon would stack up. We do know that a prime Robinson was as good if not better than Hakeem for several years and both are legendary centers. We see that Sabonis stacked up well against Robinson in their youth (Robinson and Sabonis having the same number of field goals in 86 but Robinson taking more free throws).


Prime Robinson was absolutely not better than Hakeem, not by a long shot. About the only thing Admiral did better than Dream is draw free throws, and it's debatable whether or not his passing was better. Hakeem might have been the most double and triple teamed player of the late 80's til the mid 90's just because of how he played. He was organic while Robinson was too mechanical to be of much use when he was the target of a well organized defense. That's why he was unable to win a ring until Duncan showed up.

temuchin wrote:
Robinson was not the leading scorer for the US in 86 or 88. I dont think anyone is going to argue that Charles D. Smith at 15ppg was the best player on that 86 WC team. For his part Sabonis wasn't the leading scorer on a team-oriented USSR team but Sabonis is given a lion's share of the credit most of the summaries of their victories en route to the 88 Gold Medal.


Okay, it's international basketball. Barkley led the Dream Team in scoring, and I don't think anyone would have said he was the best player on that squad.

temuchin wrote:
Bottom line, it's debatable. But Robinson is better than you think. If Sabonis is as good as Robinson, he's a top 10 center and very close to top 5.


I've agreed to as much. Neither one of them are as good as Hakeem or Shaq and certainly not on the level of Kareem and Wilt, who along with Jordan are the only guys I see any argument for as GOAT.

temuchin wrote:
Was he as good as Robinson or Hakeem? Debatable conjecture. No one knows but we know what contemporaries think about that question.


It speaks to Sabonis' character that he was content dominated in Spain instead of coming to the NBA. Could you imagine Jordan going to Greece and playing because he could have averaged 50 a game???


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:55 am
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tharock220 wrote:
Hakeem was actually a huge postseason performer and among the leaders in ppg in the NBA finals. David Robinson had a limited post game and poor foot work. In a 7 game series where coaches had ample time to design defenses against him, the Admiral routinely suffered. Were DRob's playoff performances better in general he might not be rated below Hakeem. Scoring 71 points on the 94 Clippers does not a career make.


Yeah that's been Robinson's main criticism prior to Tim Duncan, lack of playoff success. On the flip, Hakeem made up for a lot of crappy years between Ralph Sampson and and 94 by winning those 2 rings. This is why Olajuwon is above Robinson on every list but they were pretty similar. Robinson was probably a better scorer, it's not like he just put up 71. He was close to the leading scorer in the league and put up 50s, 40s etc.

As for Jordan, I can't see the Rockets beating Jordan in the playoffs any more than anyone else beating Jordan while Stern is in the league. For the same reason that that you think Hakeem is better than Robinson. The regular season is the regular season.

Quote:
The point is that Sabonis did not actually dominate and destroy David Robinson as has been insinuated in the past.


yeah that's not an apples to apples comparison. USSR played a very team game with zone etc. the point is that in the areas where Sabonis is known for, his passing, team play, vision, competitiveness he was fully effective versus Robinson. there's no way to know for certain, but if he was effective in his game versus one of the great centers in his youth you can extrapolate Sabonis would have been likewise effective with all that versus everyone else. Robinson is one of the great defenders and scorers of the 90s.

Quote:
Prime Robinson was absolutely not better than Hakeem, not by a long shot. About the only thing Admiral did better than Dream is draw free throws, and it's debatable whether or not his passing was better. Hakeem might have been the most double and triple teamed player of the late 80's til the mid 90's just because of how he played. He was organic while Robinson was too mechanical to be of much use when he was the target of a well organized defense. That's why he was unable to win a ring until Duncan showed up.


they were pretty similar in level. Robinson was a better scorer, Hakeem better blocker. Both very good defensive centers and good scorers. Hakeem better post moves, creativity, Robinson more purely athletic and as you say mechanical.

if Sabonis could compete with Robinson he could compete with Hakeem. Robinson's main issue I think wasn't that mechanical. It's simply that he ran into Olajuwon in 95 (despite whatever deficiencies he probably would have beat Shaq in the Finals as well) and then he got hurt. if skillwise they're close, and one of Sabonis' strengths was Robinson's weakness (gamey-ness, ability to win etc) then he's in the conversation.

Quote:
It speaks to Sabonis' character that he was content dominated in Spain instead of coming to the NBA. Could you imagine Jordan going to Greece and playing because he could have averaged 50 a game???


this is conjecture. maybe he realized no one else was going to win a ring with Jordan around. maybe he wanted to work on his game after his injury. there's a lot of possible reasons. Sabonis was definitely a game player, the idea that he was scared isn't well supported. he was ornery and competitive if anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh7WHWur-7s

look at this clip. when shaq dunks on sabonis and knees him afterwards, sabonis is sufficiently pissed to grab shaq's leg and try to pull him down on top of him. this is not a guy who is afraid of competition. I can only think of 2 guys who called Shaq out physically like this during this period when even mourning and ewing were afraid of shaq... Sabonis and Barkley


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:16 am
Posts: 4654Location: NJ/NY Metro AreaJoined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:07 pm
Isn't part of the point with Sabonis that he *could have been* one of the top centers in NBA history if he had had the chance to play and develop his game there (and not that he was already to be considered at that great level based on his experience in Europe)?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:15 am
User avatarPosts: 7215Location: Austin, TX Home of the RoseBowl Champions and NCAA basketball champions.Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:24 am
temuchin wrote:

Yeah that's been Robinson's main criticism prior to Tim Duncan, lack of playoff success. On the flip, Hakeem made up for a lot of crappy years between Ralph Sampson and and 94 by winning those 2 rings. This is why Olajuwon is above Robinson on every list but they were pretty similar. Robinson was probably a better scorer, it's not like he just put up 71. He was close to the leading scorer in the league and put up 50s, 40s etc.


Hakeem demonstrated he could lead a team to the playoffs and do well. Look at how he played against the Showtime Lakers and the 86 Celtics front line. Robinson dropped 71 against the Clippers in the last game of 94 because his teammates dumped him the ball so he could win the scoring title. Hakeem's career scoring average is actually higher.

temuchin wrote:
As for Jordan, I can't see the Rockets beating Jordan in the playoffs any more than anyone else beating Jordan while Stern is in the league. For the same reason that that you think Hakeem is better than Robinson. The regular season is the regular season.


You don't have to see anything. The Rockets had Mad Max who was too brain dead to be afraid of Jordan and Hakeem who the Bulls could not match up with.


temuchin wrote:
yeah that's not an apples to apples comparison. USSR played a very team game with zone etc. the point is that in the areas where Sabonis is known for, his passing, team play, vision, competitiveness he was fully effective versus Robinson. there's no way to know for certain, but if he was effective in his game versus one of the great centers in his youth you can extrapolate Sabonis would have been likewise effective with all that versus everyone else. Robinson is one of the great defenders and scorers of the 90s.


Every team in the Olympics plays a zone. Why?? Because a true zone is legal. There's no rule against camping your center in the paint. You've already criticized David Robinson for not leading the US team in scoring, but now you're giving Sabonis credit for not doing so??? Which is it???



temuchin wrote:
if Sabonis could compete with Robinson he could compete with Hakeem. Robinson's main issue I think wasn't that mechanical. It's simply that he ran into Olajuwon in 95 (despite whatever deficiencies he probably would have beat Shaq in the Finals as well) and then he got hurt. if skillwise they're close, and one of Sabonis' strengths was Robinson's weakness (gamey-ness, ability to win etc) then he's in the conversation.


That 95 WCF pretty much summarized Robinson's career. From a physical standpoint I think it's safe to call Dwight Howard a poor man's Admiral, but he didn't have the drive of a guy who he should have separated himself from like say Ewing. Robinson competed with Hakeem and Shaq, but both those guys did the things they needed to separate themselves from Robinson.


temuchin wrote:
this is conjecture. maybe he realized no one else was going to win a ring with Jordan around. maybe he wanted to work on his game after his injury. there's a lot of possible reasons. Sabonis was definitely a game player, the idea that he was scared isn't well supported. he was ornery and competitive if anything.


It's not conjecture. He was free to come to the NBA far sooner, and he was drafted by the Blazers who were a finals contender in the early 90's. In fact it's a pretty good bet the Portland would have stolen a couple of Jordan and Hakeem's rings. But he didn't. The rest of the NBA was getting beaten by Jordan, but none of them ran off to play in Europe.

Notice, I didn't say Sabas was scared. You said that. I said he was content dominating inferior competition.


temuchin wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh7WHWur-7s

look at this clip. when shaq dunks on sabonis and knees him afterwards, sabonis is sufficiently pissed to grab shaq's leg and try to pull him down on top of him. this is not a guy who is afraid of competition. I can only think of 2 guys who called Shaq out physically like this during this period when even mourning and ewing were afraid of shaq... Sabonis and Barkley


Ummm, Chris Dudley called him out. Again, it speaks volumes that Shaq would be so disrespectful to Sabonis. He dunked all over Hakeem in the 99 playoffs, but he never did anything like that.

PhilNYC wrote:
Isn't part of the point with Sabonis that he *could have been* one of the top centers in NBA history if he had had the chance to play and develop his game there (and not that he was already to be considered at that great level based on his experience in Europe)?


Calling Sabas one of the best players ever and saying what could have been is a far cry from moving him into the territory of legitimate NBA legends and top 10 players.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:09 pm
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tharock220 wrote:
Hakeem demonstrated he could lead a team to the playoffs and do well. Look at how he played against the Showtime Lakers and the 86 Celtics front line. Robinson dropped 71 against the Clippers in the last game of 94 because his teammates dumped him the ball so he could win the scoring title. Hakeem's career scoring average is actually higher.


Lol Robinson dropped 71 on the Clippers because he could. The most Hakeem ever scored was 50 something. Robinson did 50+ a number of times and 40+ a couple dozen times. Robinson had a bit higher ceiling scoring. Hakeem has a higher average because Robinson got injured in 96 or whatever and then Duncan came along and averaged 20ppg. Overall they're very similar

Quote:
You don't have to see anything. The Rockets had Mad Max who was too brain dead to be afraid of Jordan and Hakeem who the Bulls could not match up with.


Houston would not have beaten Jordan in the playoffs. They couldn't even get past an old Lakers team. What basis do you have for asserting that Hakeem could have beaten Jordan in the playoffs other than some regular season games where Jordan would go off for 30 points? 99% of anyone outside of Houston assumes that Jordan would have crushed Olajuwon the burden of proof is on the other side.

Quote:
Every team in the Olympics plays a zone. Why?? Because a true zone is legal. There's no rule against camping your center in the paint. You've already criticized David Robinson for not leading the US team in scoring, but now you're giving Sabonis credit for not doing so??? Which is it???


did you read my post? neither Robinson nor Sabonis were the leading scorers on their team. what I'm telling you is that you can't compare as if it's 2 centers in the 90s NBA going at each other.

USSR was a team that practiced together as the primary exercise in life for half a decade. the USA team in those days was not like today. they'd have camp in the summer of the tournament, pick a team practice a few weeks then go. you dont realize the difference in the team concept and composition between the two? Sabonis was never there to outscore Robinson, he was there to facilitate the win. you understand? my point is that he was perfectly functional and impressive in that capacity. Robinson just took a lot of shots and free throws and lost the Olympic Gold.

Quote:
That 95 WCF pretty much summarized Robinson's career. From a physical standpoint I think it's safe to call Dwight Howard a poor man's Admiral, but he didn't have the drive of a guy who he should have separated himself from like say Ewing. Robinson competed with Hakeem and Shaq, but both those guys did the things they needed to separate themselves from Robinson.


no lol. for the 95 series to have summarized Robinson's career he would have gone out without a ring like Ewing or Ralph Sampson. the 95 series didn't even necessarily codify perceptions of Robinson. the Spurs were a favorite the following year. 95 was a disappointment much like 06 for Dirk but it's not his career

Quote:
It's not conjecture. He was free to come to the NBA far sooner, and he was drafted by the Blazers who were a finals contender in the early 90's. In fact it's a pretty good bet the Portland would have stolen a couple of Jordan and Hakeem's rings. But he didn't. The rest of the NBA was getting beaten by Jordan, but none of them ran off to play in Europe.

Notice, I didn't say Sabas was scared. You said that. I said he was content dominating inferior competition.


Dude lol. It's CONJECTURE... your conjecture why he didn't come over. The FACT that he didn't come over isn't conjecture but WHY and the reasons you place is in fact literal conjecture.

And you're demonstrably wrong that Sabonis was "content dominating inferior competition." Why? because he CAME OVER. if he had a thing where he was content to "dominate inferior competition" logically he would never have come over. His timing of coming over in 95 after Jordan had been out for a few years and someone else winning leads me to GUESS that it was a combination of the things I wrote.

Hell, maybe he came over right then because he saw worthy all-time centers in Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing and wanted to test his old ***** body even after injuries versus those guys.

Again all conjecture. No one knows for certain. Ask Sabonis.


Quote:
Ummm, Chris Dudley called him out. Again, it speaks volumes that Shaq would be so disrespectful to Sabonis. He dunked all over Hakeem in the 99 playoffs, but he never did anything like that.


haha Chris Dudley. okay lol. as for Shaq being disrespectful you realize that Sabonis is white right? while Hakeem is this really black guy from Africa? it's like asking why was Jordan disrespectful to Kukoc when he was nice to Pippen? why did Jordan punch Kerr in the face simply for doing a good job defending him in practice. why did Garnett punch Rick Rickert? these are black dudes in the NBA.

Quote:
Calling Sabas one of the best players ever and saying what could have been is a far cry from moving him into the territory of legitimate NBA legends and top 10 players.


it's not a matter of far cry. dudes who played with Sabonis and his old coaches like dunleavy say ****** like "he was one of the best at this and this and this" it doesn't matter how far the cry is this is actually what they feel and what they've said. you can disagree but it's established opinion on Sabonis' game by people who saw him closely.

in light of all it's perfectly logical for people to then wonder how good he could have been if he'd had a career here in the US like the all time greats


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:09 pm
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temuchin wrote:

Lol Robinson dropped 71 on the Clippers because he could. The most Hakeem ever scored was 50 something. Robinson did 50+ a number of times and 40+ a couple dozen times. Robinson had a bit higher ceiling scoring. Hakeem has a higher average because Robinson got injured in 96 or whatever and then Duncan came along and averaged 20ppg. Overall they're very similar


Lol, that 71 points was the only time Robinson ever scored more than Hakeem's career high, and the Spurs were dumping him the ball in the last game of the season which happened to be meaningless.

Now that we've established Robinson MIGHT be able to have big scoring nights more often than Hakeem, let's examine the other end of the spectrum. Robinson was routinely in the 0-20 range far more often the Dream, and Hakeem played more than 3 straight seasons without scoring double digits. He was harder to stop, plain and simple. So you're might have an argument at the high end, but you're blown away at the low end.

They both averaged over 25ppg 4 times in their primes. David's peak was higher, Hakeem's averages were higher. That's just in the regular season. In the playoffs Robinson was routinely shut out and topped out at 25ppg. Hakeem averaged more than 30 twice in the playoffs.

temuchin wrote:
Houston would not have beaten Jordan in the playoffs. They couldn't even get past an old Lakers team. What basis do you have for asserting that Hakeem could have beaten Jordan in the playoffs other than some regular season games where Jordan would go off for 30 points? 99% of anyone outside of Houston assumes that Jordan would have crushed Olajuwon the burden of proof is on the other side.


Yeah, that old Lakers teas with ancients like Magic(31), Worth(29), Scott(29), Perkins(29), and Divac(22). Those guys were cashing Buss's checks and their social security checks at the same bank.

The Rockets owned the Jordan's Bulls in 93 and only got better in 94. Basketball isn't a game where a<b and b<c means a<c when it comes to teams. Matchups account for a lot, and Hakeem wasn't some playoff pushover like Robinson and Karl Malone.



temuchin wrote:
did you read my post? neither Robinson nor Sabonis were the leading scorers on their team. what I'm telling you is that you can't compare as if it's 2 centers in the 90s NBA going at each other.

USSR was a team that practiced together as the primary exercise in life for half a decade. the USA team in those days was not like today. they'd have camp in the summer of the tournament, pick a team practice a few weeks then go. you dont realize the difference in the team concept and composition between the two? Sabonis was never there to outscore Robinson, he was there to facilitate the win. you understand? my point is that he was perfectly functional and impressive in that capacity. Robinson just took a lot of shots and free throws and lost the Olympic Gold.


Robinson's job was not to outscore Sabonis. He just happened to be the leading scorer in those games. Sabas didn't dominate Robinson as many want try to say.

temuchin wrote:
no lol. for the 95 series to have summarized Robinson's career he would have gone out without a ring like Ewing or Ralph Sampson. the 95 series didn't even necessarily codify perceptions of Robinson. the Spurs were a favorite the following year. 95 was a disappointment much like 06 for Dirk but it's not his career


Robinson hasn't done much to distinguish himself from Ewing, and the rings don't do much for it because, well, everyone knows by that point Robinson was a roll player, and in 03 he wasn't even second banana. 95 basically exposed Robinson as a guy you weren't going to win a ring with as your main gun, and that has been the description of his career ever since.


temuchin wrote:
Dude lol. It's CONJECTURE... your conjecture why he didn't come over. The FACT that he didn't come over isn't conjecture but WHY and the reasons you place is in fact literal conjecture.

And you're demonstrably wrong that Sabonis was "content dominating inferior competition." Why? because he CAME OVER. if he had a thing where he was content to "dominate inferior competition" logically he would never have come over. His timing of coming over in 95 after Jordan had been out for a few years and someone else winning leads me to GUESS that it was a combination of the things I wrote.


He came over when he was damn near 31. If he wasn't content dominating in Spain then why did he stay. What you wrote is conjecture. If he were truly interested in testing himself against the world's best he would have come over in 90 or 91 or 92 or some time prior, but hey, if you want to think he came because Jordan was out even though he signed with the Blazers after Jordan had returned in March of 95 then go right ahead.


temuchin wrote:
Hell, maybe he came over right then because he saw worthy all-time centers in Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing and wanted to test his old ***** body even after injuries versus those guys.


You mean a guy who had been around for 3 years, a guy who had been around for 6, a guy who had been around for 10, and a guy who had been around for 11 were the "holy sh!t now there's worthy competition in the NBA all the sudden" guys he came over to play.

I know why he came to the NBA, and it rhymed with the word bunny. Other than that he appeared happy being the big fish in the small pond.

temuchin wrote:
haha Chris Dudley. okay lol. as for Shaq being disrespectful you realize that Sabonis is white right? while Hakeem is this really black guy from Africa? it's like asking why was Jordan disrespectful to Kukoc when he was nice to Pippen? why did Jordan punch Kerr in the face simply for doing a good job defending him in practice. why did Garnett punch Rick Rickert? these are black dudes in the NBA.


You never saw Shaq or KG doing that sort of thing to Dirk Nowitzki or Steve Nash or Jordan doing it to Larry Bird. NBA players show respect to players worth respecting and guys who might get pissed off and drop 40 on them.

temuchin wrote:
it's not a matter of far cry. dudes who played with Sabonis and his old coaches like dunleavy say ****** like "he was one of the best at this and this and this" it doesn't matter how far the cry is this is actually what they feel and what they've said. you can disagree but it's established opinion on Sabonis' game by people who saw him closely.

in light of all it's perfectly logical for people to then wonder how good he could have been if he'd had a career here in the US like the all time greats


Except he isn't one of the best. By the time he got here Hakeem was 32 and experiencing injury problems of his own, but Sabas still wasn't as good.


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