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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:26 am
User avatarPosts: 59329Location: Hong Kong/ChinaJoined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:13 am
karamazov wrote:
With these expat players dominating like crazy and taking up most of the minutes, I am not sure if this is at all good for Chinese basketball in the long run. The idea of having expat players is to raise the level of play and hopefully local players can become better.


Well, it needs the team owner and the coach to realize that.

Alot of time, they just want RESULTS and ignored the growth and development of the young players.

And one of the thing that surely
SUX is that CBA teams seldom emphasize defense.

Not that many teams are like Shanghai MAXXIS Sharks and Bob Donewald Jr. that put heavy emphasis on defense, and team concept.
Bob Donewald Jr., unlike the other coaches, likes to deploy the young players instead of relying heavily on his expat players. He gave Wang Ligang and Peng Fei alot of play minutes over Garret Siler; he also stressed defense, and the young players of Shanghai did improve a great deal over the past season, particularly on defense. A notable example will be this 20-year-old young guard/forward Meng Lingyuan that almost secured a starting position on position 3 for his strong knack on defense.

He also stressed alot on teamwork. In one of these games, John Lucas III was playing with a temper, kept bricking, ignored passing to his team mates and not obeying/complying with his pregame instructions. He just benched him for the full 4th quarter, and instead used Luo Xudong and Meng Lingyuan alternatively on position 1, and switched Liu Wei to position 2.


Not too many of the Chinese head coaches dared to bench their star expat players.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:13 pm
Posts: 890Location: Pasadena, USAJoined: Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:54 pm
So maybe the solution is to have better coaches like this Bob guy. Coaches like Jonas clearly gets more out of his players, teaching them to play basketball the right way. Watching China play the European teams always gets to me, because China have the more talented players, but none of them know how to play as a team.

The other thing they need to do is allow some of the players to go to Europe. This is what Jonas said, guys like Zhu Fangyu and wang zhizhi, they will play against better competition there.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:54 pm
User avatarPosts: 59329Location: Hong Kong/ChinaJoined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:13 am
karamazov wrote:
So maybe the solution is to have better coaches like this Bob guy.


Well, sometimes it is not REALLY about getting an expat coach or not.

It is about the local sports bureaus, the club/the team owners and the players themselves as well.

It's quite complicated.

To give you an example.

There are 4 CBA teams this year that hired foreign coaches.


  • Rytas Vaisvila from Lithuania for Liaoning Panpan Hunters: sacked and packed to go home due to poor results; then the Liaoning Sports Bureau and the Team Owner had disputes on the succeeding coach. The Club does not like, but the local sports bureau insisted to reinstate Guo Shiqiang, the head coach of the national team back onto the job.
  • Sidney Moncrief from NCAA/USA for Beijing Capital Steel Ducks; also "promoted" to honorary consultant of the team also for poor results;
  • Jason Rabedeaux from NCAA/USA for Jiangsu Nangang Dragons; who is struggling to keep his job cos the local Jiangsu sports bureau wanted Hu Weidong to be reinstated for the job, and Jason Rabedeaux was complaining in private that he had his hands bound by the local coaching staff led by Hu Weidong on his choice of players and setting of game strategies/plans.
  • Bob Donewald Jr. for Shanghai MAXXIS Sharks; he is by far the most successful foreign head coach of the 4 of them, as he got the full trust of Yao Ming/Team Yao and could control his players.
Personally don't think Rytas Vaisvila or Sidney Moncrief are not experienced basketball coaches.

But then there are lots of political power struggles within the local sports bureau and the club, and very often the team owners are too short-sighted and only look for immediate/short term results without having patience and giving fee hand to these foreign coaches.

Therefore alot of times these expat head coaches worked 3 to 4 months, and then got sacked and packed to go home.

Not that many team owners are like Yao Ming, who refused to evaluate the performance of his head coach, saying he set eyes on future, and he does not think it is fair to evaluate Bob Donewald Jr.'s performance on a 2 to 3 months period.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:28 pm
Posts: 890Location: Pasadena, USAJoined: Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:54 pm
It shouldn't be that difficult.

When you look at a country like Australia, with ~20 million, that has a far superior basketball team to China (minus Yao), and superior soccer team (they made the world cup, gosh even NZL made the world cup), even though these are not even their national sports.

I just don't get it, why China can not be better at these games. - I will not buy that its because Asians are somehow genetically inferior in sports.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:26 pm
User avatarPosts: 4524Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:00 pm
karamazov wrote:
It shouldn't be that difficult.

When you look at a country like Australia, with ~20 million, that has a far superior basketball team to China (minus Yao), and superior soccer team (they made the world cup, gosh even NZL made the world cup), even though these are not even their national sports.

I just don't get it, why China can not be better at these games. - I will not buy that its because Asians are somehow genetically inferior in sports.


China beat australia in soccer the last time they played. during the world cup qualifier China won 1 - 0 and the game was played in australia. The time they played in China the score was 0 - 0. And australia is not superior to china in basketball China beat australia in the 2004 fiba diamond ball tournament and the 2006 stankovic cup.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:34 am
User avatarPosts: 7735Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 10:06 pm
karamazov wrote:
It shouldn't be that difficult.

When you look at a country like Australia, with ~20 million, that has a far superior basketball team to China (minus Yao), and superior soccer team (they made the world cup, gosh even NZL made the world cup), even though these are not even their national sports.

I just don't get it, why China can not be better at these games. - I will not buy that its because Asians are somehow genetically inferior in sports.


There's a lot of money that goes into sport in countries like Australia who hosted the 2000 Olympics. Plus Australia is a country with a huge sporting culture.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:04 am
User avatarPosts: 59329Location: Hong Kong/ChinaJoined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:13 am
Tang Man wrote:

There's a lot of money that goes into sport in countries like Australia who hosted the 2000 Olympics. Plus Australia is a country with a huge sporting culture.


China also invested alot of money on sports, but I guess it's ALL ABOUT the CROOKED SYSTEMS that China could not generate world class level basketball and soccer teams.

They just did EVERYTHING WRONG.


For soccer, I don't really want to mention it. China used to be the best in Asia. But those corrupted officials within the Chinese Football Association just screwed it.....The attendence is shrinking, the teams are losing money, and young children stopped playing......

For basketball, SAME FVCKING THING. This new CBA Commissioner Xin Lancheng is just one of these good-for-nothing bureaucrats. And everything about Chinese basketball seemed back-pedalling: the CBA league is shortened just to make way for those closed door training/meaningless exhibition games of the national team; the attendence is shrinking; the young players lacked play minutes due to the influx of expat players; every CBA team, except maybe Guangdong Hongyuan Dongguan Bank is making money.......

Chinese sports require some revolutionary changes to its systems.......

Or else, very soon, Chinese basketball will be doomed just like Chinese soccer.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:02 am
User avatarPosts: 7735Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 10:06 pm
pryuen wrote:

China also invested alot of money on sports, but I guess it's ALL ABOUT the CROOKED SYSTEMS that China could not generate world class level basketball and soccer teams.

They just did EVERYTHING WRONG.


For soccer, I don't really want to mention it. China used to be the best in Asia. But those corrupted officials within the Chinese Football Association just screwed it.....The attendence is shrinking, the teams are losing money, and young children stopped playing......

For basketball, SAME FVCKING THING. This new CBA Commissioner Xin Lancheng is just one of these good-for-nothing bureaucrats. And everything about Chinese basketball seemed back-pedalling: the CBA league is shortened just to make way for those closed door training/meaningless exhibition games of the national team; the attendence is shrinking; the young players lacked play minutes due to the influx of expat players; every CBA team, except maybe Guangdong Hongyuan Dongguan Bank is making money.......

Chinese sports require some revolutionary changes to its systems.......

Or else, very soon, Chinese basketball will be doomed just like Chinese soccer.


Spending money on sports is one thing, the other is about having the knowledge to put in a system that will allow the athletes the best chance of succeeding. As you've alluded, Chinese sports official aren't probably doing the best of jobs in sports that are not traditionally strong for Chinese athletes like soccer and basketball. The playing pool is there but the knowledge does not appear to be so. The system seem to work for sports like gymnastics, badminton, table tennis etc. However in sports like soccer and basketball it takes more than just hard work and practice to succeed. The players need to learn how to compete and how to read and react to game situation. This is something that I think is lacking in a lot of athletes from China.

Also there's the selection process. In countries like the US, Australia and the UK a majority of kids participate in some form of sports with the best athletes in each sports filtering to the top. This process allows the kids play sports they have a natural talent for. Whereas in China, kids are selected to play a certain sport and spent their life training in that sport whether it suits them or not. So you're not always getting the right athletes into sports that suits their talent. Look at Liu Xiang for example. He didn't come from the system but arose to become a champion in a sports official said he shouldn't waste his time with.

Also athletes in China are somewhat manufacturer rather and can be rather robotic in the way they play the game. The end result is Chinese athlete like Yao and Yi competing in the NBA don't quite have the feel for the game that American athletes have. Yao has a had great career so far and we can only applaud what he has achieved in basketball. However I bet if he had the same feel for the game as Kobe or Lebron, he would be a lot more dominant and had a more success.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:33 am
User avatarPosts: 59329Location: Hong Kong/ChinaJoined: Tue Feb 25, 2003 5:13 am
Tang Man wrote:

Also there's the selection process. In countries like the US, Australia and the UK a majority of kids participate in some form of sports with the best athletes in each sports filtering to the top. This process allows the kids play sports they have a natural talent for. Whereas in China, kids are selected to play a certain sport and spent their life training in that sport whether it suits them or not. So you're not always getting the right athletes into sports that suits their talent. Look at Liu Xiang for example. He didn't come from the system but arose to become a champion in a sports official said he shouldn't waste his time with.



Well, NOT NECESSARILY SO.

Yao Ming used to be trained as a goalie for water polo; then switched to backetball;

Su Wei, centre for Guangdong Hongyuan Dongguan Bank, was sent at a very young age to be trained as a rower; but he changed to basketball when he was 14 years old.

Song Kangming, centre of Dongguan New Century Leopards was trained for 4 to 5 years in its Yantai Sports Academy as a discus thrower.


WHAT made you think Liu Xiang was an exception?? He entered the Shanghai Sports Academy at the age of 12, and was trained as a high jumper for 3 years, before he switched to focus on 110 meter hurdle.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:08 am
Posts: 18023Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 1:31 pm
ko_xinga wrote:
karamazov wrote:
It shouldn't be that difficult.

When you look at a country like Australia, with ~20 million, that has a far superior basketball team to China (minus Yao), and superior soccer team (they made the world cup, gosh even NZL made the world cup), even though these are not even their national sports.

I just don't get it, why China can not be better at these games. - I will not buy that its because Asians are somehow genetically inferior in sports.


China beat australia in soccer the last time they played. during the world cup qualifier China won 1 - 0 and the game was played in australia. The time they played in China the score was 0 - 0. And australia is not superior to china in basketball China beat australia in the 2004 fiba diamond ball tournament and the 2006 stankovic cup.

You moron, how come Australia soccer ranks in the 20s in the world while China is about 80s? China should rank at least higher than Japan and Korea. Another question is that South Africa also ranks in the 80s and they are hosting the world cup. Maybe China should try to host the world cup.


Last edited by superjohn on Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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