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<  Yao on the court, and his most recent game  ~  4/26/2009 Playoff Round 1 Game 4 Vs Portland

PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:07 am
Posts: 4636Location: NJ/NY Metro AreaJoined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:07 pm
temuchin wrote:
pryuen wrote:
PhilNYC wrote:

During this series, Yao is shooting at a higher FG%, higher FT%, grabbing more rebounds, with less than half the turnovers than he did during the regular season (per game average). He is 100% the focus of the Blazers' defense, and yet he's being more efficient than he was during the season and impacting the game in a huge way. He has been far more than mediocre...without the attention he is drawing, the Rockets would be losing this series.



NOT TO MENTION the tough and physical shovelling, pushing, elbowing, hugging from Joel Przybilla and Greg Oden (which Nate McMillan , the head coach of Portland TrailBlazers thought were touch fouls only ) that he had been receiving and more than 2 phantom fouls he received every game in Game 1, 2 and 3 that had affected his performance.


the impact that Yao's been having on Portland has been almost entirely due to the first half of the first game. he's been able to draw doubles and pile fouls on guys but that's been more a function of what he showed in game 1 and what he COULD do than what he actually did. even in game 3 where his presence was so good in giving Scola opportunities. Yao was 2-7 in that game. It wasn't what Yao was doing offensively in that game but the THREAT of Yao established in 1 quarter of game 1.

before the series Nate was going to play yao straight up. that first quarter of game 1 basically changed that plan for the entire series... it made such an impact that even when Yao was scoring 7 points they had to respect him as a threat.

again it's hard to characterize what Yao's done this series. literally a HOF first quarter that changed the character of a series more than any other single quarter by any other player than i can remember. yet "efficiency" in NBA terms in its highest form is scoring on possessions that your team absolutely needs points... not on going 3-6 and maintaining a literal % efficiency for the game. yet even when failing to score Yao's stepped up with a lot of heart in every game and done anything to help his team win. for example in that 2-7 game yao grabbed 13 board and got 3 blocks and went 5-4-4 on fouls on Portland's front line

Yao's generally a very hard player and unique to characterize. his impact on this series is likewise very unique and hard to characterize. without Yao obviously Houston would not have won those games but he's actually been paradoxically mediocre... including just not being there at the end of games 1-3.


See, this is a much more reasonable post.

As I said in my previous post, you can't ignore what Yao did in Game 1 to affect the rest of the series. He had a superb game 1 and forced the Blazers to change their defense almost entirely because of it. In game 2, Yao was mediocre. Game 3, he upped his game on defense and rebounding and all the little things, and game 4 he figured things out on offense. Had he not been so dominant in game 1, he would have gotten more touches/opportunities in games 2 and 3 because the Blazers wouldn't have been so focused on stopping him. So you have to take all of it into account.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:16 am
Posts: 10073Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:10 pm
edited out a bunch of negativity.

1) game 1 Yao went AWOL because his entire PRODUCTION in the 2nd half was 2 personal fouls, 2 rebounds and 0 shot attempts. he sat starting in the 3rd quarter not due to substitution by RA but took himself out of the game drawing his 4th foul on roy

Stats Yao's FG% is 55% for the season 53% of his career. This series he has gone 9-9, 3-6, 2-7, 7-14. Except for 1 half of one game he's BELOW both season and career averages in FG%. His percentage hasn't been terrible but it's statistically significant. It's the definition of mediocre and I chose to characterize it as such for a reason


Last edited by temuchin on Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:18 am
Posts: 10073Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:10 pm
PhilNYC wrote:
As I said in my previous post, you can't ignore what Yao did in Game 1 to affect the rest of the series. He had a superb game 1 and forced the Blazers to change their defense almost entirely because of it. In game 2, Yao was mediocre. Game 3, he upped his game on defense and rebounding and all the little things, and game 4 he figured things out on offense. Had he not been so dominant in game 1, he would have gotten more touches/opportunities in games 2 and 3 because the Blazers wouldn't have been so focused on stopping him. So you have to take all of it into account.


just go back and delete your post and repost what i posted.

he had a HOF first quarter and all star half in game 1. he's been mediocre the rest of the series but done enough to help his team win


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:42 am
Posts: 4636Location: NJ/NY Metro AreaJoined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:07 pm
temuchin wrote:
edited out a bunch of negativity.

1) game 1 Yao went AWOL because his entire PRODUCTION in the 2nd half was 2 personal fouls, 2 rebounds and 0 shot attempts. he sat starting in the 3rd quarter not due to substitution by RA but took himself out of the game drawing his 4th foul on roy


If the game got to within 10 points, I have no doubt that RA would have put Yao back in the game in the 4th quarter. I even think that if the game was within 10 points at the end of the 3rd quarter, Yao would have started the 4th quarter.

Quote:
Stats Yao's FG% is 55% for the season 53% of his career. This series he has gone 9-9, 3-6, 2-7, 7-14. Except for 1 half of one game he's BELOW both season and career averages in FG%. His percentage hasn't been terrible but it's statistically significant. It's the definition of mediocre and I chose to characterize it as such for a reason


Over the course of the regular season, teams did not front/double Yao to the same extent the Blazers have fronted/doubled Yao in games 2-4. So yes, I would expect that games 2-4 would be below Yao's season averages. But you can't discount the fact that Yao's performance in game 1 is the main reason why the Blazers have elevated their focus on Yao in games 2-4...and with each game, Yao has been even overcoming that (mediocre game 2, improved defense and rebounding game 3, very good game all-around in game 4).

Ok, so if you want to define Yao's performance in this series based on his stats, that's your choice. My choice is to define it based on how much his presence affects the game...


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:45 am
Posts: 10073Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:10 pm
If if if pigs had wings they could fly. Yao sat as a consequence of picking up his 4th foul not because RA chose to take him out. I made the statement that Yao went AWOL not because Houston had a lead but because Yao had no production in the time he played and then he basically got himself taken out of the game. How else should we describe it? That he did what he wanted and the game plan is 0 points 0 shots in the 2nd half per RA's gameplan of resting Yao while playing while doing the least bit possible on the court?

We know empirically from games 2 and 3 that whether Houston has the lead or not has no bearing on Yao's production or his possessions ergo it's largely irrelevant who had the lead when discussing how Yao went AWOL. It's not like he chose to not produce because Houston didn't need it... he just went missing.

You pointed to Yao's FG % as an indication of his performance in the series. I told you that one quarter in one half of one game skewed his numbers because of his small overall production in the series. You kept posting some crap so I showed you the numbers. Taking the first half out of game 1 Yao is mediocre. He's still at 50% for most of the games so it's not TERRIBLE but it's mediocre (along with the fact that taking fewer than 10 shots is by itself a sort of penalty to the rockets)

it's actually pretty interesting how a guy can play average/sub average in a crucial area yet give his team a chance to win. to me this series was never in doubt and the bright spots for Yao is that he's done other stuff to help his team win and that he's actually getting better as the series goes on. game 1 was great then it was terrible, game 2 was terrible but Yao's kept battling and Im expecting a very big game 5 from Yao (provided the refs dont Stern-it-up with a lot of whistles in Portland's favor to give LA more of a rest and extend this series)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:46 am
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Stats is no good if you cherry pick results that you want. You can't prove Yao shot poor % when you take out the first half of game 1.

If your point was that Yao has played average this series, then yeah. But, it's normal to play your average. What did you expect?

If Yao's stats were to double in the playoffs. Negative people would still call Yao lazy in regular season.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:38 am
Posts: 4636Location: NJ/NY Metro AreaJoined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:07 pm
temuchin wrote:
If if if pigs had wings they could fly. Yao sat as a consequence of picking up his 4th foul not because RA chose to take him out. I made the statement that Yao went AWOL not because Houston had a lead but because Yao had no production in the time he played and then he basically got himself taken out of the game. How else should we describe it? That he did what he wanted and the game plan is 0 points 0 shots in the 2nd half per RA's gameplan of resting Yao while playing while doing the least bit possible on the court?


I simply do not think that it is "going AWOL" when a starter sits during garbage time in a game. You can say that he lacked production for 6 minutes in the 3rd quarter, but to somehow blame him for having "no production" in the 4th quarter during a blowout because the coach decided to go with the backups is ridiculous IMHO.

Quote:
We know empirically from games 2 and 3 that whether Houston has the lead or not has no bearing on Yao's production or his possessions ergo it's largely irrelevant who had the lead when discussing how Yao went AWOL. It's not like he chose to not produce because Houston didn't need it... he just went missing.


We know that in the first half of game 1, the Blazers tried to defend Yao man-to-man straight up and Yao dominated them big-time. Then we know when they changed that strategy, it opened things up for other players like Scola and Landry because the Blazers were so focused on defending Yao. I don't know how you can say "Yao went missing"...the Blazers certainly didn't think he went missing when they dedicated so much of their defense to keeping the ball out of his hands. Game 4 showed that when they started trying to mix up the doubles/fronts/singles on Yao, that Yao made them pay every time they singled him


Quote:
You pointed to Yao's FG % as an indication of his performance in the series. I told you that one quarter in one half of one game skewed his numbers because of his small overall production in the series. You kept posting some crap so I showed you the numbers. Taking the first half out of game 1 Yao is mediocre. He's still at 50% for most of the games so it's not TERRIBLE but it's mediocre (along with the fact that taking fewer than 10 shots is by itself a sort of penalty to the rockets)


I didn't post crap. I posted the fact that when Yao was being defended man-to-man, he dominated...and that forced the Blazers to change their defensive strategy. You cannot simply take out game 1 and say "see, look at his mediocre statistics!". You have to take into account ALL of the variables. Yao did not go AWOL...the Blazers had to focus on defending him, and this was a pivotal reason why the Rockets have won. If Yao was simply missing a bunch of open shots, then I'd agree that he was AWOL...but he's been making the Blazers work extremely hard, and because of this, I think he's been far more than "mediocre".

Quote:
it's actually pretty interesting how a guy can play average/sub average in a crucial area yet give his team a chance to win. to me this series was never in doubt and the bright spots for Yao is that he's done other stuff to help his team win and that he's actually getting better as the series goes on. game 1 was great then it was terrible, game 2 was terrible but Yao's kept battling and Im expecting a very big game 5 from Yao (provided the refs dont Stern-it-up with a lot of whistles in Portland's favor to give LA more of a rest and extend this series)


I agree. And this is exactly why I think Yao has played much better than "mediocre". His numbers overall may be mediocre, but he has had the biggest impact on the series of any player out there.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:24 am
Posts: 10073Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:10 pm
Malorkayel wrote:
Stats is no good if you cherry pick results that you want. You can't prove Yao shot poor % when you take out the first half of game 1.


What are you talking about prove? Just look at the numbers. You can see it for yourself you dont need anyone to prove or not prove it for you. I'm not the stat junky here. Phil said Yao's shooting percentage was above average as a means of proving Yao's had an above average series. Yao's shooting % for the series is higher than average but unduly skewed by one outlier sequence. Removing 1 half in 4 games as I originally posted Yao's shooting percent is actually below average.

I made that point specifically to refute Phil's post about Yao's shooting percentage indicating he's having a great series carrying the rockets

Quote:
If your point was that Yao has played average this series, then yeah. But, it's normal to play your average. What did you expect?


That's not an indicator of Yao "playing average." I guess you can do what you said is wack and cherry pick stats and look solely at FG%. In which case Yao is still below "average" excluding the first half of game 1. But FG efficiency definitely isn't indicative of overall performance by ANY MEANS in NBA ball. His FGA and SCORING are much more highly correlated to both individual production and rocket wins. And are both below average. In some games less than half of average.

What did I expect? I dont expect people to post crap about 6 and 7 FGAs in the playoffs average or superlative production for Yao.

Quote:
If Yao's stats were to double in the playoffs. Negative people would still call Yao lazy in regular season.


If double means that, then what does LESS THAN HALF offensive production in games mean?

Again FG% is pretty much useless for determining true efficiency in basketball, especially when you're taking few shots and not affecting other people's shots by taking 25 FGAs a game. Also 3-6 2-7 doesn't mean ******. you make 2 more shots or 2 fewer shots and youre like 10 points above or below your average.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:57 am
Posts: 10073Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:10 pm
Phil stop reposting the same stuff.

1) Yao sat not because it was garbage time he sat because he got 4 fouls. Reiterating incorrectly about Yao sitting because RA pulled the starters doesn't change the fact that he scored as many points after halftime for the Rockets as you did. The Rockets didn't enter the 2nd half with a 30 point lead. The game was in progress. I characterized scoring no points, taking no shots, and fouling yourself out as going AWOL. No one wants to hear you arguing a straw man argument about what the final score was.

2) Talking about WHY Yao's production was reduced does not in and of itself refute the fact that Yao's production was reduced. I'm saying Yao had a mediocre series based on his production when the team needed it and you're posting over and over "no he didn't because he was double teamed."

There's a lot of reasons why Yao was less effective in this series one of which is the defensive adjustments but there are about 10 other reasons including Yao getting fatigued, Brooks not being able to feed him, Artest and Brooks jacking up shots in stead of establishing the offense, PFs in the 3rd quarter etc etc.

As I originally posted Houston is winning first and foremost because it's a better team. Yao is contributing but is as much of a determinate force as Scola and Brooks are. Take Yao out they lose but take Scola out or Brooks in game 1 and they lose as well. Take Chuck out of game 4 they might lose that one too. Putting aside the bliss of thinking Houston will escape round 1 and the concomitant laudatory of Yao that guys are coming out of the woodworks to post this is obviously not the series Yao wanted to have. You can listen to Yao's own words after game 2 about not taking enough shots.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:01 pm
Posts: 4636Location: NJ/NY Metro AreaJoined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:07 pm
temuchin wrote:
Phil stop reposting the same stuff.


I will if you will. ;-)

Quote:
1) Yao sat not because it was garbage time he sat because he got 4 fouls. Reiterating incorrectly about Yao sitting because RA pulled the starters doesn't change the fact that he scored as many points after halftime for the Rockets as you did. The Rockets didn't enter the 2nd half with a 30 point lead. The game was in progress. I characterized scoring no points, taking no shots, and fouling yourself out as going AWOL. No one wants to hear you arguing a straw man argument about what the final score was.


The Rockets were up 62-44 at halftime. The Rockets were up 85-58 at the end of the 3rd quarter. It was pretty clearly a blow-out. Yes, Yao took a seat in the 3rd quarter after picking up his 4th foul. Do you truly believe that RA would not have put Yao back in the game in the 4th quarter if the game were closer? Yao had 6 minutes where he didn't score (but he still pulled down 2 rebounds and had a block in those 6 minutes).

Quote:
2) Talking about WHY Yao's production was reduced does not in and of itself refute the fact that Yao's production was reduced. I'm saying Yao had a mediocre series based on his production when the team needed it and you're posting over and over "no he didn't because he was double teamed."


You are measuring the quality of Yao's play (his "production") by his scoring alone, which you are calling "mediocre". I am measuring the quality of Yao's play by the impact he has had on the outcome of the games, which I am calling "much better than mediocre". He has had the biggest impact on the series of any single player on either team. I am not focusing on just his scoring, which you seem to be doing.

Quote:
There's a lot of reasons why Yao was less effective in this series one of which is the defensive adjustments but there are about 10 other reasons including Yao getting fatigued, Brooks not being able to feed him, Artest and Brooks jacking up shots in stead of establishing the offense, PFs in the 3rd quarter etc etc.


I don't see how all of those things leads anyone to the conclusion that Yao has been "mediocre". He is the MVP of this series so far.

Quote:
As I originally posted Houston is winning first and foremost because it's a better team. Yao is contributing but is as much of a determinate force as Scola and Brooks are. Take Yao out they lose but take Scola out or Brooks in game 1 and they lose as well. Take Chuck out of game 4 they might lose that one too. Putting aside the bliss of thinking Houston will escape round 1 and the concomitant laudatory of Yao that guys are coming out of the woodworks to post this is obviously not the series Yao wanted to have. You can listen to Yao's own words after game 2 about not taking enough shots.
:wink: :wink:

The difference between "taking Yao out they lose, but take Scola out or Brooks out and they lose too" is this....Scola and Brooks are essentially making open shots that they would otherwise not be getting if not for Yao demanding so much attention (maybe less so for Brooks, but definitely for Scola). They are important, no doubt, but any decent shooter at those positions are going to be able to do that (in fact, Landry was able to fill in and hit the shots at PF that Scola was able to do as well in Game 3). Yao, on the other hand, is doing stuff that very few other players would be able to do...put anyone in his place that isn't named "Shaq", and chances are he's not going to demand nearly as much attention from the defense as Yao is.

Anyways, obviously this discussion isn't convincing either of us to change our minds....


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